From Flex to Flutter

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From Flex to Flutter

leokan23
For anyone who might be interested, I migrated an old app from Flex to
Flutter and wrote some thoughts about how close the two frameworks are. I
would be more than glad if you check it out and of course as always, I am
100% open for any questions.

From Flex to Flutter
<https://medium.com/@kanellopoulos.leo/from-apache-flex-air-to-flutter-8719b7b75380>  



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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Carlos Rovira-2
Hi Leokan,

very interesting reading thanks for sharing! :)

I want to ask you if you tried (or considered) Apache Royale as an
alternative at some point when searching for alternatives to Flex. I think
we are currently in a very good state in Apache Royale with Jewel and maybe
it is the smoothest transition from Apache Flex. So your comments about it
would be very useful for us at Apache Royale.

Some examples done with Apache Royale are:

   - https://avant2.es/productos-y-companias/ : A Real App in production,
   is a mini widget responsive app done for the Avant2 website that consumes
   REST API from exposed wordpress services. Use Jewel, Crux and show
   customization of jewel theme to match look and feel on the website.
   - https://royale.apache.org/tourdejewel/  : The app that showcases the
   jewel components.
   - https://royale.apache.org/todomvc-jewel/ : The TODOMVC example app
   (from http://todomvc.com/) done with Royale, Jewel and Crux. It shows
   customization of jewel theme look and feel to match requirements in the
   original app.


Thanks! :)

Carlos






El sáb., 8 ago. 2020 a las 23:51, leokan23 (<[hidden email]>) escribió:

> For anyone who might be interested, I migrated an old app from Flex to
> Flutter and wrote some thoughts about how close the two frameworks are. I
> would be more than glad if you check it out and of course as always, I am
> 100% open for any questions.
>
> From Flex to Flutter
> <
> https://medium.com/@kanellopoulos.leo/from-apache-flex-air-to-flutter-8719b7b75380>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/
>


--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

leokan23
Hi Carlos,

of course Royale was my first try back in version 0.7.2. The reason I tried
it was mostly for web but I had many issues starting with it. Piotr helped
me a bit to start but at the time my main issues where:

1. Documentation was scarce (there were mostly examples, not documentation).
2. The first few times i tried to setup the sdk, I couldn't make it work.
Actually Piotr spent like 50 minutes trying to setted up on my laptop a few
years ago.
3. Another issue for me was that I had to rewrite all the UI as Sparks
emulation wasn't available.

One of the things I am not sure how it works, is the mobile part (which I am
most interested for). In my understanding you need to use cordova which
makes Royale comparable to Ionic, which is not the best option as it is
basically a wrapped web site in an app. Not sure if you can export the
Royale project directly to AIR apk or ipa.

After Jewel was released, I thought about giving it another go, but due to
lack of time I never did. I am not sure if the issues above still stand, but
if you can clarify the mobile thing, I would be glad. :)



--
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

ScottM
Carlos
           I think the work you have done is outstanding, however as a small developer, is there a real long team future, I know we always say yes, but we where let’s down big time by Adobe with these poor management of the flex issue and the abandonment of flex

Flex is a great language, however  most languages have a life expedience

JS in versions , C in versions, python seems to be good long terms bets

I started in this industry in 1980’s so I have seen lots of stuff come and go

IMHO royal is a side road that may run out if tar some time in the future, then your back to start

After looking are royal last you we spent the last year moving our app to react it is very close to flex in a lot of ways

Just me thoughts  

Scott



Sent from my iPhone

> On 9 Aug 2020, at 11:22, leokan23 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Carlos,
>
> of course Royale was my first try back in version 0.7.2. The reason I tried
> it was mostly for web but I had many issues starting with it. Piotr helped
> me a bit to start but at the time my main issues where:
>
> 1. Documentation was scarce (there were mostly examples, not documentation).
> 2. The first few times i tried to setup the sdk, I couldn't make it work.
> Actually Piotr spent like 50 minutes trying to setted up on my laptop a few
> years ago.
> 3. Another issue for me was that I had to rewrite all the UI as Sparks
> emulation wasn't available.
>
> One of the things I am not sure how it works, is the mobile part (which I am
> most interested for). In my understanding you need to use cordova which
> makes Royale comparable to Ionic, which is not the best option as it is
> basically a wrapped web site in an app. Not sure if you can export the
> Royale project directly to AIR apk or ipa.
>
> After Jewel was released, I thought about giving it another go, but due to
> lack of time I never did. I am not sure if the issues above still stand, but
> if you can clarify the mobile thing, I would be glad. :)
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Harbs


> On Aug 9, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Scott Matheson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> IMHO royal is a side road that may run out if tar some time in the future, then your back to start

The success of Royale depends on all of us. I personally have a lot invested in it and I’m not abandoning it anytime soon.

> After looking are royal last you we spent the last year moving our app to react it is very close to flex in a lot of ways

FYI, Royale completely destroys React in performance — both in memory usage and speed. One day when I have a the time, I hope to write a blog post on the topic.
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Carlos Rovira-2
In reply to this post by leokan23
Hi Leokan,

I'll try to answer your questions :)

1.- Mobile. Far beyond Cordova, other option is  Electron (
https://royale.apache.org/how-to-create-a-desktop-application-with-royale-and-electron/),
But I think AIR is another option too, since AIR allowed native HTML apps
to be wrapped too. I must say that I did not try that option but others
did, since the Electro tutorial was by Judah. So I think you have 3 options
that you can use. Since App builders are just about taking an HTML/JS/CSS
app and wrap it, I think it is more in the side of the app builder solution
itself, and Royale must focus on making it possible to build whatever you
need and in the integrations.

2.- Documentation is here: https://apache.github.io/royale-docs/get-started
Of course, we tried to do our best, but still we need to continue working
on it, but I think it is enough these days to start. We continue populating
it since it is a parallel task.

3.- SDK: I think nowadays current released version 0.9.7 is in good shape (
https://royale.apache.org/apache-royale-v0-9-7-released/), but other
option, if you want to be up to date is use a nightly build (
https://royale.apache.org/get-involved/ - check at the bottom of the page)

My perception is that we are in a version very close to 1.0., or said in
other words, I find each day we can do whatever we want with Royale in its
current state, and proof is the examples I posted. But, I'm more for
continuing to improve it so reaching the magic number of "1.0", will be
more the smoothest experience for a new user.

We already have many needed things like Routing, Themes, AMF, HTTPService,
IoC, DI, etc, etc, etc... so in the current state is just a matter of
filling the latest few holes. Most of them are reported by users like you
that are helping us to fill that issue. I think it is important for users
to be involved in the community and the project to report issues and try to
help since you can find some issue, and as an Open Source project you need
to do open communication with the project so we all can solve any issues.




El dom., 9 ago. 2020 a las 12:22, leokan23 (<[hidden email]>) escribió:

> Hi Carlos,
>
> of course Royale was my first try back in version 0.7.2. The reason I tried
> it was mostly for web but I had many issues starting with it. Piotr helped
> me a bit to start but at the time my main issues where:
>
> 1. Documentation was scarce (there were mostly examples, not
> documentation).
> 2. The first few times i tried to setup the sdk, I couldn't make it work.
> Actually Piotr spent like 50 minutes trying to setted up on my laptop a few
> years ago.
> 3. Another issue for me was that I had to rewrite all the UI as Sparks
> emulation wasn't available.
>
> One of the things I am not sure how it works, is the mobile part (which I
> am
> most interested for). In my understanding you need to use cordova which
> makes Royale comparable to Ionic, which is not the best option as it is
> basically a wrapped web site in an app. Not sure if you can export the
> Royale project directly to AIR apk or ipa.
>
> After Jewel was released, I thought about giving it another go, but due to
> lack of time I never did. I am not sure if the issues above still stand,
> but
> if you can clarify the mobile thing, I would be glad. :)
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/
>


--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Carlos Rovira-2
In reply to this post by ScottM
Hi Scott,

thanks for sharing. I think React is a good solution, as Flutter or others
like Vue, Angular... nowadays we have enough options out there, and all of
them allow us to reach our goals, so it's just a matter of "what you are
more comfortable with".

As well not all Flex developers, or Royale developers are searching for the
same needs. For example, I needed AMF and RemoteObject, and we needed to
make it real in Royale. Nowadays, Royale is the only technology out there
where AMF really works end-to-end without touching a line on the server
side. For me that fact was key, since I could migrate from Flex, pushing a
Royale version side-by-side to the Flex one to our users. Other options
required us lots of work and changing server, so more problems, time and
investment.

As well for me Royale means to keep the same ordered mindset of declaring
interfaces in MXML as I imagine of it, and for me that experience is
invaluable in terms of productivity. I think JSX or other options are not
as simple or elegant as MXML when I compare code. Of course, this could be
just my perception. In my company we have as well projects in React and as
I check code done when reviewing our repos (in PRs, direct commits,...),
while is valid, for me still seems like a step back from what we had with
Flex.

Here's the full code (exposed to the community) of the widget app:
https://github.com/codeoscopic/avant2-website
My vision is the Royale programming model is far more easy, simple and
elegant. Again just my perception, normal since I'm working for it each day
to make it shine ;).

Of course, Royale doesn't come for free, and we need as a community to be
involved to get the most of it. Most of the times, when I see huge
communities, I see very few people "following", "staring", making volume,
but many few working to make it evolve, so while I understand is many
important for people see "community volume", I'm for continue betting for
Royale to make it grow in community and code and since I think it deserve
the effort and of course...because I enjoy it! ;-)



El dom., 9 ago. 2020 a las 12:57, Scott Matheson (<[hidden email]>)
escribió:

> Carlos
>            I think the work you have done is outstanding, however as a
> small developer, is there a real long team future, I know we always say
> yes, but we where let’s down big time by Adobe with these poor management
> of the flex issue and the abandonment of flex
>
> Flex is a great language, however  most languages have a life expedience
>
> JS in versions , C in versions, python seems to be good long terms bets
>
> I started in this industry in 1980’s so I have seen lots of stuff come and
> go
>
> IMHO royal is a side road that may run out if tar some time in the future,
> then your back to start
>
> After looking are royal last you we spent the last year moving our app to
> react it is very close to flex in a lot of ways
>
> Just me thoughts
>
> Scott
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 9 Aug 2020, at 11:22, leokan23 <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Carlos,
> >
> > of course Royale was my first try back in version 0.7.2. The reason I
> tried
> > it was mostly for web but I had many issues starting with it. Piotr
> helped
> > me a bit to start but at the time my main issues where:
> >
> > 1. Documentation was scarce (there were mostly examples, not
> documentation).
> > 2. The first few times i tried to setup the sdk, I couldn't make it work.
> > Actually Piotr spent like 50 minutes trying to setted up on my laptop a
> few
> > years ago.
> > 3. Another issue for me was that I had to rewrite all the UI as Sparks
> > emulation wasn't available.
> >
> > One of the things I am not sure how it works, is the mobile part (which
> I am
> > most interested for). In my understanding you need to use cordova which
> > makes Royale comparable to Ionic, which is not the best option as it is
> > basically a wrapped web site in an app. Not sure if you can export the
> > Royale project directly to AIR apk or ipa.
> >
> > After Jewel was released, I thought about giving it another go, but due
> to
> > lack of time I never did. I am not sure if the issues above still stand,
> but
> > if you can clarify the mobile thing, I would be glad. :)
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/
>


--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Carlos Rovira-2
In reply to this post by Harbs
Hi Harbs,

royale website is waiting for you! ;), so if you want to write for it, let
me know and I can help you on publishing it :)
I must say I tweeted various points about the amazing performance and low
app weight we get in the Royale Twitter account ;-)

El dom., 9 ago. 2020 a las 13:10, Harbs (<[hidden email]>) escribió:

>
>
> > On Aug 9, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Scott Matheson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > IMHO royal is a side road that may run out if tar some time in the
> future, then your back to start
>
> The success of Royale depends on all of us. I personally have a lot
> invested in it and I’m not abandoning it anytime soon.
>
> > After looking are royal last you we spent the last year moving our app
> to react it is very close to flex in a lot of ways
>
> FYI, Royale completely destroys React in performance — both in memory
> usage and speed. One day when I have a the time, I hope to write a blog
> post on the topic.



--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

ScottM
In reply to this post by Harbs
Chaps I am sure royal is a good product It is just 2 year late to market and many of use have to plan a future 1 or 2 years ago

I understand the community element, but that is  one of the issue, does royal relay have a sufficient community to last out, maybe time will tell

I remember before I started coding in flex 2010, I spend 1 year evaluation frameworks, IMHO back in 2010 flex was the only game in town, Apple and Adobe killed flex / flash not becomes it was bad, it was a victim of a bigger power game, that’s life

I will keep watching this space and wish all well, maybe after I get port out of the door, I may comeback and try a port, never say never

Sent from my iPhone

> On 9 Aug 2020, at 12:10, Harbs <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> 
>
>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 1:57 PM, Scott Matheson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> IMHO royal is a side road that may run out if tar some time in the future, then your back to start
>
> The success of Royale depends on all of us. I personally have a lot invested in it and I’m not abandoning it anytime soon.
>
>> After looking are royal last you we spent the last year moving our app to react it is very close to flex in a lot of ways
>
> FYI, Royale completely destroys React in performance — both in memory usage and speed. One day when I have a the time, I hope to write a blog post on the topic.
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

leokan23
In reply to this post by Carlos Rovira-2
Thank you for clearing some things up.

1. So I understand it correctly, that there is a need to wrap the html with
cordova, electron and others to make it work which makes it not a real app
but a web app wrapped. Unfortunately, that doesn't work very well in most
cases due to performance.

2. It has been long time since I checked this, but I believe Olaf pushed
some of my contribution in docs for VSC in 2018 :)





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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Carlos Rovira-2
Hi Leokan,

The performance in Royale is awesome as Harbs mentioned. Check this:

https://twitter.com/ApacheFlex/status/1217022282591342592

(hope Harbs could take the time to write a good article with all the points
explained, I think will be a very good for all of us and potential future
users of Royale)

Maybe you should try to wrap a Royale app like TDJ or any other one and
check it, and report what you think about current performance.

Take into account that React uses a virtual dom duplicating and managing
all the content while Royale goes straight for native very basic html
structure that is very optimized in browsers (mobile and desktop), since we
count with a compiler to make the html/js/css output as our "bytecode" for
browsers ;). So maybe you should get a surprise on that front.

Anyway, taking the time to check and report your findings will be
very helpful :)

Thanks

El dom., 9 ago. 2020 a las 15:45, leokan23 (<[hidden email]>) escribió:

> Thank you for clearing some things up.
>
> 1. So I understand it correctly, that there is a need to wrap the html with
> cordova, electron and others to make it work which makes it not a real app
> but a web app wrapped. Unfortunately, that doesn't work very well in most
> cases due to performance.
>
> 2. It has been long time since I checked this, but I believe Olaf pushed
> some of my contribution in docs for VSC in 2018 :)
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/
>


--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

leokan23
I want to clarify I am talking mobile performance not web. I will give royale
another go, to check how much access I have to native libraries like camera,
geolocation etc and what the performance is compared to flex and native.



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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Carlos Rovira-2
Hi Leokan,

thanks, I think if you experiment and share with us we can all learn a lot
about performance of web html apps on mobile :)
I'll want to read about your findings! :)

El dom., 9 ago. 2020 a las 16:38, leokan23 (<[hidden email]>) escribió:

> I want to clarify I am talking mobile performance not web. I will give
> royale
> another go, to check how much access I have to native libraries like
> camera,
> geolocation etc and what the performance is compared to flex and native.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/
>


--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Harbs
I’d love to hear your results as well.

I’d also love to work on native compiling one day too.

In the short term, I have other priorities. One of them is filling in Canvas APIs which I should be working on in the next month or two.

> On Aug 9, 2020, at 5:41 PM, Carlos Rovira <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Leokan,
>
> thanks, I think if you experiment and share with us we can all learn a lot
> about performance of web html apps on mobile :)
> I'll want to read about your findings! :)
>
> El dom., 9 ago. 2020 a las 16:38, leokan23 (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
>
>> I want to clarify I am talking mobile performance not web. I will give
>> royale
>> another go, to check how much access I have to native libraries like
>> camera,
>> geolocation etc and what the performance is compared to flex and native.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/
>>
>
>
> --
> Carlos Rovira
> http://about.me/carlosrovira

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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Carlos Rovira-2
Hi Harbs,

I was using Canvas API on the first link (HTMLCanvasElement), so what do
you refer to?
thanks

El dom., 9 ago. 2020 a las 18:33, Harbs (<[hidden email]>) escribió:

> I’d love to hear your results as well.
>
> I’d also love to work on native compiling one day too.
>
> In the short term, I have other priorities. One of them is filling in
> Canvas APIs which I should be working on in the next month or two.
>
> > On Aug 9, 2020, at 5:41 PM, Carlos Rovira <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Leokan,
> >
> > thanks, I think if you experiment and share with us we can all learn a
> lot
> > about performance of web html apps on mobile :)
> > I'll want to read about your findings! :)
> >
> > El dom., 9 ago. 2020 a las 16:38, leokan23 (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
> >
> >> I want to clarify I am talking mobile performance not web. I will give
> >> royale
> >> another go, to check how much access I have to native libraries like
> >> camera,
> >> geolocation etc and what the performance is compared to flex and native.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carlos Rovira
> > http://about.me/carlosrovira
>
>

--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Harbs
We have SVG implementations of the Graphics package. I plan on adding a Canvas implementation as well.

> On Aug 9, 2020, at 9:00 PM, Carlos Rovira <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Hi Harbs,
>
> I was using Canvas API on the first link (HTMLCanvasElement), so what do
> you refer to?
> thanks
>
> El dom., 9 ago. 2020 a las 18:33, Harbs (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
>
>> I’d love to hear your results as well.
>>
>> I’d also love to work on native compiling one day too.
>>
>> In the short term, I have other priorities. One of them is filling in
>> Canvas APIs which I should be working on in the next month or two.
>>
>>> On Aug 9, 2020, at 5:41 PM, Carlos Rovira <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Leokan,
>>>
>>> thanks, I think if you experiment and share with us we can all learn a
>> lot
>>> about performance of web html apps on mobile :)
>>> I'll want to read about your findings! :)
>>>
>>> El dom., 9 ago. 2020 a las 16:38, leokan23 (<[hidden email]>) escribió:
>>>
>>>> I want to clarify I am talking mobile performance not web. I will give
>>>> royale
>>>> another go, to check how much access I have to native libraries like
>>>> camera,
>>>> geolocation etc and what the performance is compared to flex and native.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Carlos Rovira
>>> http://about.me/carlosrovira
>>
>>
>
> --
> Carlos Rovira
> http://about.me/carlosrovira

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Re: From Flex to Flutter

leokan23
Sadly, after running a simple example with Cordova (I hadn't tested it for a
couple of years), it looks like I get huge FPS drops even on my 12gb 8core
phone. It dropped in a simple animation from 60fps to 5, which obviously is
a no go.

The second benchmark I did was going through a for loop to increase a
counter from 0 to 1000.
Royale for web result: 545ms to 678ms
Royale wrapped with cordova (running on webview of android as it doesnt
support directly running using chrome engine): 670ms to 820ms

Flutter for mobile (running in debug): 53ms to 112ms

I will extend the test to use a royale project instead, to see if it makes
any difference, but I am not confident that I will get better results at
this point.

So as I have said in the past, although Royale is a great option to replace
Flex for web, I dont see it working for mobile apps.



--
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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Harbs
Cool. This is really useful info.

Architecturally, Royale was designed to support the same kind of compile-to-native support that Flutter gives you. A big part of the reason we are keeping SWF support alive in Royale is to ensure components can target other platforms. The most obvious platforms other than web is iOS and Android.

Unfortunately none of us has spent any time working on direct-to-native support. I can’t speak for anyone else, but I can tell you that I haven’t because mobile development is not really on my radar right now.

Harbs

> On Aug 13, 2020, at 4:53 PM, leokan23 <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Sadly, after running a simple example with Cordova (I hadn't tested it for a
> couple of years), it looks like I get huge FPS drops even on my 12gb 8core
> phone. It dropped in a simple animation from 60fps to 5, which obviously is
> a no go.
>
> The second benchmark I did was going through a for loop to increase a
> counter from 0 to 1000.
> Royale for web result: 545ms to 678ms
> Royale wrapped with cordova (running on webview of android as it doesnt
> support directly running using chrome engine): 670ms to 820ms
>
> Flutter for mobile (running in debug): 53ms to 112ms
>
> I will extend the test to use a royale project instead, to see if it makes
> any difference, but I am not confident that I will get better results at
> this point.
>
> So as I have said in the past, although Royale is a great option to replace
> Flex for web, I dont see it working for mobile apps.
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/

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Re: From Flex to Flutter

leokan23
Makes sense. I have been focusing on mobile only since 2012 so this is the
reason I never jumped to Royale in the early days. Maybe an option would be
(at some point) to follow the Dart path and somehow make Royale compile
directly to ARM code. that solves all the performance issues in android and
ios.

Comparing however Flutter and Royale for web, performance is more or less
similar (on chrome).



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Re: From Flex to Flutter

Carlos Rovira-2
Hi Leokan,

thanks for the info. I must admit that I'm in the same boat as Harbs, so
mostly web development and apps running on browsers in mobile and desktop.
Another thing is that I was impressed by Royale performance in devices and
desktop, so wrapping with Electron or Cordova, seems to me valid.

Anyway, I'd love to have iOS/Android native compiling and extend Jewel to
use both.

Thanks for the info!

Carlos



El jue., 13 ago. 2020 a las 21:26, leokan23 (<[hidden email]>) escribió:

> Makes sense. I have been focusing on mobile only since 2012 so this is the
> reason I never jumped to Royale in the early days. Maybe an option would be
> (at some point) to follow the Dart path and somehow make Royale compile
> directly to ARM code. that solves all the performance issues in android and
> ios.
>
> Comparing however Flutter and Royale for web, performance is more or less
> similar (on chrome).
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://apache-flex-users.2333346.n4.nabble.com/
>


--
Carlos Rovira
http://about.me/carlosrovira